Intro [0:00]

Rida:  My friend just seemed completely different. It was like, who is this person in front of me? Normally she's really bubbly. We have a good laugh. I was just watching her getting more and more concerned. And she did say to me, "I really wish you had spoken up more. And I really wish you'd just shaken me to kind of make me feel more aware of what was happening."

Angie: The thing that my friends picked up on was how sad I was getting, because when someone is undermining your self-esteem like that, it does bring you down and it does make you feel underappreciated. And that can be overwhelming when you're pouring your heart out into someone's like world, and it's just not getting you anywhere.

Rida: My name is Rida, and this is the Friends Can Tell podcast. National research has shown that young people experience the highest rates of relationship abuse of any age group. When we experience toxic behaviour in a relationship, a close friend is the person that young people are most likely to go to for help. 90% of young people have tried to support a friend in this situation, but 83% said that self-doubt about how to best help gets in the way.

Rida: In this podcast, you're going to hear a conversation between myself and Angie, where we share our different experiences of toxic relationships. My experience supporting a friend facing controlling behaviors in a relationship and Angie's experience of abuse in a relationship, which her friends helped her to leave. This is the first time we'd spoken. Just a warning that this conversation contains descriptions of relationship abuse and violence.

The conversation begins (01:49)
Angie: Hi, my name's Angie. It's nice to meet you.

Rida: Nice to meet you too. Can you see me?

Angie: I can see you.

Rida: Oh, perfect. Good, good. How are you doing?

Angie: I'm doing pretty well actually. How are you doing?

Rida: I'm not bad. It's not a bad day at work today. So, you know, it makes you feel better even if the weather isn't that great.

Angie: So have you had like any experience yourself with abuse or is it more just like your friends?

Rida: Yeah, me personally, I don't believe I've gone through any cases of emotional or any kind of toxic environment in a relationship, but it is more just speaking from the lessons I've learned through how my friends have gone through things and actually just reflecting on what I could have done better as a friend. And also I'd be really interested to see if you agree with what I say, or if you think maybe I am going down the wrong path. So, that's really what I would love to gain from today. How about yourself?

What do friends notice when someone is being abused? [02:45]

Angie: Yeah. I've had a little bit of firsthand experience in an abusive relationship, and it was my friends that basically got me out of it. So when it first started, I basically dropped out of uni because my dad had gone into a coma. And then I just ended up getting into this really intense relationship, and like moving in with him, and befriending his housemates and like his set of friends. And then it wasn't for like a few months until I realised that he was making fun of me in front of his friends and stuff. But basically he strangled me.

Rida: Oh my God.

Angie: ...just out of the blue. Yeah. He was like... I don't know, at the time I like excused it too much, like over rationalising it, I think I thought he was going through psychosis or a mental breakdown at the time. But he said afterwards that he did it because he thought he could. And I think that goes to show the level of... Yeah. So, yeah.

Rida: Well, it's insane that you made it through, you picked it up and at such a young age as well. I feel like when you're younger, like you said, you rationalise things because you've not experienced things a lot of the time and you don't know a lot of the time if this is just ups and downs of a relationship, this is what it's like being with someone, versus what it could actually be. What you went through a really toxic relationship.

Angie: Yeah. And I think he blamed me for our finances like not being great and yeah, he would kind of trade smacks and stuff for like affection or whatever.

Rida: That's manipulation. Yeah. Like proper.

Angie:  Very manipulative. Yeah, in a really weird way. It makes you feel cared for, but then it makes you feel like you're being bought, doesn't it?

Rida: Yeah.

Angie: The first thing that my friends picked up on was how sad I was getting, because when someone is undermining your self-esteem like that, it does bring you down and it does make you feel, you know, underappreciated.

Rida: Yeah, absolutely.

Angie: Yeah. And that can be overwhelming when you're pouring your heart out into someone's like world, and it's just not getting you anywhere.

Rida: Well, I mean, you are amazing to have gotten through it and to actually realise now that all those different red flags you know, and then you can go back and support your friends. It's unfair that we have to go through that or people have to go through that, to kind of make it out the other side and know what's right and what's wrong.

Friendship intervention: how it made a difference [05:29]

Angie: Yeah. And I think the best thing that my friends did was intervene and as much as that can be a really hard thing to do, especially in a new relationship, to take your friend to the side and be like, look is everything okay? But if it wasn't for that, then I would probably still be putting up with it, do you know what I mean?

Rida: How did your friends intervene? What did they say to you?

Angie: I think they were talking to themselves about it first, just to make sure that they were both on the same page, but yeah, they just took me to the side and they were like, I don't think that they care how they make you feel. And they pointed out that people have natural blind spots, don't they? And then abusers tend to sort of notice where the blind spot are and then hide there, and just spin darkness into it. And like do you know what? Nah - notice that, and it helped me realise when he was doing it. And then when I was standing up for myself, they were the ones who kept validating me and actually saying, yeah basically I'm not the one being unreasonable here. And that was important for the courage to leave.

Honesty vs empathy: when straight-talking with a friend can backfire [06:49]

Angie: Tell me a bit more about your thing.

Rida: I guess the way I came at it is the lessons I've learned through seeing some of my friends go through relationships. Full disclaimer, I'm a type of person that thinks very logically about things. It's just my way of thinking and I've grown up like that. It's very look at the facts and if it seems right or wrong, you make a decision based on that. But I missed the empathy part of things in the beginning, understanding why people were feeling this way or understanding that it's not always someone sees something wrong and then they can decide that they need to step away. There's feelings involved, emotions involved, and people have vulnerabilities that make them open to that kind of toxicity sometimes.

Rida: And the first few instances where I saw my friends getting into relationships that I necessarily didn't agree with, or I didn't think were good for them. I would be really flat out with it. I'd say like, "Well, based on this, you know, I saw him say this to you in front of me at one point in time, which I thought was really rude or toxic. I don't like him, and I don't think you should be with him." That was that absolutely the wrong approach to take, because what I did through that is alienate my friends. Don't know what you think of that, but...

Angie: I honestly think it takes a lot of courage to be truthful and honest and to say how you feel about something. And to be honest, you did come from a place of care. So you can't be hard on yourself about that. Because you absolutely did do the right thing in expressing that it was wrong and what they said was wrong. I think it can be really hard to undo some of the manipulation that's already gone on. And like I think it's important to like understand why your friend may have been attracted to that relationship. The only way you could have helped that is just to soften it and be like, look, I care about you and want what's best for you. And just make sure that you add that sort of like what you genuinely do already feel. Just try and find the words...

Rida: I lacked sensitivity in the beginning, because sometimes you just want to shake your friend and be like, wake up this is not okay. But you need to understand they're caught in this situation, like you said, people have blind spots. And then when that blind spot is being pressed on all the time, a person is like exploiting it, then they can't see what's going on. And it might be easy for you as a third person to see this isn't right. But you can't just go out and make your friend feel stupid for not seeing that.

How hard it was to leave [09:30]

Angie: Yeah. It can be really hard to break out of those relationships. People say it takes maybe nine times to leave your abuser.

Rida: How many times did you try to leave?

Angie: Well, I stayed with him too long. I stayed with him throughout the restraining order, breaking the law and everything. But my friends, I didn't even bother letting them know about it because I didn't want to worry them. And I alienated myself all over again and then I realised nothing's going to change. And I realised yeah, it's just an abusive relationship. There's nothing else to gain from it. There's nothing else to gleam out of it. And yeah, sometimes it's not based on truth and sometimes it's not based on love. I realised that this isn't making me happy. This is still draining me. This is still not love.

The moment Angie’s friends decided to step in [10:33]
Rida: Do you think there's a limit to how much a friend can help someone in a toxic relationship? Like you know they can speak to them and say, these are my concerns. I'm really worried about you. This is what I've picked up, but how much more do you think a friend can do to help that situation?

Angie: If you can make time for them and just try like pull them away from it for like even an hour or two, like a week or something. Yeah, just try and be there for them and give them a place for them to be themselves. In my position, I was really vulnerable after the whole strangling incident. I think they realised that I was scared, and that's when they took it out of my hands and they were like, right, we need to phone the police. And yeah, they were right to do it.

Rida: Do you think you would've called the police if your friends hadn't stepped in?

Angie: No. So sometimes it's important to step in. Obviously ask them how they feel about it because I know there's a lot of stigma against going to the police for these things like you don't want to be a rat or a snitch or whatever, but your safety comes first. If that person does not respect your safety, then they are dangerous. They should not be around other people.

Rida recalls a friend’s toxic girlfriend, and regrets her own response [11:53]
Rida: One of my friends got in a toxic long distance relationship. We always used to have a really good laugh and share all of our relationship worries and everything with each other. And she - after we graduated - told us that she had a friend that she had in America, she was just going to meet her for a few weeks and then come back and then she comes back and she tells us, "This is my girlfriend. You knolw, we got really close when we were out there, and I'm now in a relationship with her." Obviously absolutely fine, we just wanted to know more information, like "Who is she? What's she like? When are we going to get to meet her?" All of that kind of thing, but it was always really evasive. At that point. I was like, okay fine, maybe just navigating a new relationship dynamic and doesn't want to bring her friends into it that soon, whatever.

Rida: But as time went on, like we found out that she was like tracking her location on her phone. She was reading all her messages. And then she came out to dinner once, and we were sat eating dinner. And my friend, she looked at the waiter to get his attention, and her girlfriend turned around and said, "Why are you looking at him like that? I know you're trying to get his attention. What are you playing at?" Kind of thing. And me and my other friend... Yeah, I was really just in shock and my friend just seemed completely different. It was like, who is this person in front of me? Normally she's really bubbly, we have a good laugh, but she was so uptight, so on edge, and I was just watching it getting more and more concerned.

Rida: So the mistake I made in that situation was to not speak up quickly enough. And I was like, I'm just going to let her navigate this relationship. Maybe I'm not the right person to speak about it, maybe she doesn't feel comfortable around me and that's what it is. And I kept trying to give excuses for it, but I had warning bells ringing in my mind and I kind of made them apparent, but I didn't want to say more than that because I'd learned from the last time that I would just be alienating my friends if I take it and say exactly what I'm thinking. And then what ensued after that was a really toxic relationship for her, that she couldn't speak to us about, because she just couldn't feel like she could.

Rida: And it got to the point where she was constantly being tracked. She's now finally... She came out of the relationship, she had to go to therapy afterwards to relearn everything again, after being in that relationship for near three years. And I said to her, I said, when I was around you guys, I was getting really odd vibes and I tried to make you aware of it, but I could feel like you were resisting and you were shutting yourself off. So I left it. And she did say to me, I really wish you had spoken up more and I really wish you just shaken me, to kind of make me feel more aware of what was happening.

Angie: It can be cruel sometimes because you can hold yourself to standards of what you know now, but you didn't want to assume. And I understand that, but trust your instincts. If someone else also agreed with you, then the odds are that is... a little bit suss, definitely.

Learning from your mistakes and how to trust your instincts [14:48]
Rida: Exactly. I think what you said is really important. You do need to trust your instincts. For me, it was learning about a more sensitive way of delivering that message. And I definitely think I've built up on that now. I do. I've learned from all the different experiences I've had, and about patience and giving them the safe zone to come back and relay that information to you, so you can help them process it because the mistake you make when they alienate is that your friend doesn't come back to you to vent or feel like they can talk about it.

Angie: Yeah. I think it's important to remember that after they're going through that, they're still unlearning the alienation they used to feel in that relationship. And it's important to yes, give them space, but also let them know that you care. I think that's one of the most important things you can do and yeah, just be kind to yourself as well as to them. You can only really do so much, but learning to trust your intuition is a huge part of growing up.

Rida: Having gone through what you've gone through now, when you see a friend potentially being in a toxic relationship, how do you like respond to it?

Angie: I tell them... Basically -

Rida: Are you blunt with it?

Angie: I've got to vet them. I do trust my instincts now because obviously having them tested in situations like that, it does lead you to sort of remembering that you do know best. Because the first time I met my ex, it was really weird the way he looked at me, there was a mental connection, and I heared in my brain, like this guy wants to kill you. And like-

Rida: Really?

Angie: Yeah. I know that sounds paranoid, right? No, like-

Rida: But sometimes there's a feeling you get and you have to trust it.

Angie: Maybe he was based on something real because yeah, you just have to trust yourself. Oh, I undermined that and then let him undermine the rest of it. Never again. I trust my instincts when it comes to like listening to people, what they say and like how they say it. Let your friend know how much they're worth.

Rida: And you have to constantly remind yourself that, that's the basic that you deserve.

Angie: This has been a good convo.

Rida: It's been - it's kind of eye opening, but in a good way, like you see the way that you think is aligned with, you know, how other people think. If you're a good person and you come at it with good intentions, then you should be entitled to receive the same back, and that's really important.

Angie: Yeah.

Rida: And it kind of comes back to what the whole purpose of this conversation, is having good people around you, people that you can fall back on.

Angie: Friends.

Rida: Friends are so important.

Angie: They're chosen family.

Rida: That's what I was going to say, literally took it out of my mouth.

Angie: Yeah. I don't know if you've heard that saying the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the uterus, but like it goes to show that it's not necessarily what you are handed in life. It's how you form things from that. And that can be from friendship to chosen family, to soulmates, to finding your own family out in the future.

Rida: I think it's about remembering your strength as a person, the value that you have. And the importance of the people around you, I think as well.

Outro [18:21]
Rida: This podcast was brought to you by the Friends Can Tell campaign, which raises awareness of how young women and non-binary young people can support friends who experience toxic behavior or abuse in their relationships. The experiences Angie and I shared were our personal stories and opinions. If you'd like advice on the safest ways you can help your friends and support the campaign, you'll find these in our show notes available on your podcast platform or at yourbestfriend.org.uk/podcast. All of the conversations in the Friends Can Tell series are available now for you to listen. This podcast was made with me, Rida, and Angie. It was created by On Our Radar and produced by Chris Walter, Chloe Cheesman and Sarah Cuddon.